Help Please

All SC2 related discussion.
Post Reply
AProtSkred
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:03 am

I am currently, on a good day, a top 15 silver player but I am completely stuck here and I am making no progress. Any help-builds-advice would be much appreciated. Also I have noticed most people in this clan are bronze-gold. Could we set up a weekly time (like clan scrimmage night) where more advanced player can helps us noobs improve and make this clan a force to be reckoned with.

Thanks

APS
User avatar
Kool
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:37 pm

Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:47 am

Hey
Saw you in game, I'm silver too.
Ill go over a couple of builds that I personally enjoy. I take it your toss.

Team Liquid has good buils, and you pretty much need to focus on a build for each matchup. Just make sure it is within your skill level, as some builds are very micro intensive, so for lower leagues it is harder.

See you in game!
With great power comes great electricity bill.

Platinum - Zerg - ???
User avatar
KhalDanis
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:28 pm

Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:42 am

Hey, I would be happy to help you with any information you need to improve. You may post a replay here and I can analyse it for you with what you can specifically work on.

Build-wise, follow Kool's advice - it's very good Image

In terms of general tips, I will help if you can post a replay, either using ggtracker, drop.sc or just the native site's replay upload function if it allows you.
Now, you shall feel the power of the Protoss...
AProtSkred
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:45 pm

Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:02 pm

It would be great if you could check this replay out
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4339015
Thanks

APS
Last edited by AProtSkred on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
KhalDanis
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:28 pm

Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:40 pm

AProtSkred wrote:It would be great if you could check this replay out
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4339015
Thanks

APS
It would be my pleasure. I'll check it during the day, after I wake up :P I'm illegally awake right now Image My wife would kill me if she woke up and found me not in bed, haha Image I'll check out the game later and provide you with my opinions then.

Stay tuned!

Added (2013/December/29, 5:40 PM)
---------------------------------------------
AProtSkred wrote:It would be great if you could check this replay out
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4339015
Ok, APS. I will comment as I watch, to give you a detailed analysis of the game, then proceed with things you can focus on immediately, and what you can plan as goals for the long term.

GAME START!

- Opening is looking crisp, so that's good. One small tip:
When a probe is holding minerals when you pull it from the mineral line, you can press C to have it return the minerals, then command it to do whatever you need, such as build a pylon, or go mine gas. You don't lose those 5 minerals that way.

- Not scouting is a big no-no in PvZ... Because you opened gate first and not forge first, you need to scout to see the timing of Zerg's natural and when they are taking their gas, as well as checking if they're taking gas very early or 2 gases, to determine if an all-in is coming or not.
3:45 mins and no scouting is a huge risk.

- You could have started warpgate at the same time as your MS Core. When opening gate first, you want WG as soon as possible because it gives you options to have enough defensive sentries when needed and also opens up possibilities to punish a greedy 3rd from Zerg. So, you can make your warpgate timing much faster. Keep an eye on your resources and don't hesitate to spend every ounce of gas this early to execute your build faster.

- That move out with your 1st zealot and MS Core is too risky and unnecessary since you want to expand. It is better in this case to keep your units at home, and use a probe to scout. If they were home, that zergling would not have killed that probe at your natural that was trying to place a nexus, and with a MS Core and 2 zealots it would not have been able to scout your main. Also, instead of 2 zealots, I prefer 1 stalker 1 zealot with MS core as it has range and can control space better, this early in the game, and if there is a greedy 3rd, you can grab your z/s/msc and attack and Zerg will need to sacrifice a lot of larvae on zerglings instead of drones, and if you scout it early enough, you usually can deal a lot of damage before needing to pull out.

- That attack was ballsy, but ok since you were able to force a lot of lings and did a bit of damage. However, losing the MS Core in this case is a HUGE blunder because this is essentially your only strong defense against a lot of lings. The timing of the attack was late, and would have better against his 3rd, which you should have scouted much earlier with a Probe, as I mentioned above.

- Upon losing the stalker, you're essentially boned because now, he can just pump lings and kill you...
Usually, you are using the stalker to apply pressure, then recall out to save it and keep it behind your natural wall, or you're actually paying for it by sniping lings and queens, but not losing it.

- Also, when going against this Zerg, you may want to hold off on getting robo bay, and just go for warp-prism with about 5 gates, then tech to twilight or stargate, depending on what you scout. Also, you cannot afford double forge at this particular moment, so it is better to stick to 1 forge and prioritize attack upgrades and focus your build on more gate units, based on your opening.

And this is another reason why losing your MS Core that early is a huge mistake, because you cannot really apply pressure back to Zerg, when you need to be, to force more units instead of drones.

- Your chronoboost spending needs some work as well. You need to chronoboost all nexuses if you're focusing on making probes. Your main nexus was idle for at least 2 chrono cycles just now, meaning that you're losing out on probe count, which is really important at this stage since you're competing with Zerg's drone count by forcing units.

- Since you dedicated to Colossus tech, you should immediately grab your 3rd and 4th gas, because you'll need them as soon as your robo bay is ready. You'll need 200 gas for thermal lance and 200 gas for your first colossus, WHILE still keeping some gas for warp-ins of stalkers or sentries, or for forge upgrades...

- Another thing: You need to practice making efficient wall-offs as PART of your opening build order.

With gate first, you want:

Gate > gas > core > gas > MS Core/WG research > Nexus > forge > 2nd gate > 3rd gate

This will ensure you have enough gates to defend any attacks, and also opens up the possibility to be aggressive against passive greedy 3rd base Zergs. You get a robo after you have about MS core and 2-3 sentries or 2 stalkers, or when you have 1 zealot + 1 stalker + MS Core.

- See? When you start your first colossus, you're gas starved already. That's why you need those 2 gases much earlier.

- That naked 3rd is a really bad idea... You have almost no units... Just 1 colossus that can actually matter and Photon overcharge. You scouted a roach warren with your obs, and Lair tech. You should be halting colossus production and getting immortals and sentries out, for an attack, or to defend your 3rd. And you should be cancelling Thermal Lance because you won't really need it till later. In fact, a better upgrade would be Gravitic Drive for warp prisms to counter attack with a zealot warp-in, if Zerg tries to snipe your 3rd (where your army generally wants to be, or close by).

- Also, at this period (11:30 mins), since you took a 3rd, you should be on at least 5-7 gates until you saturate it, after which you are aiming for 10-12 gates and possibly a 2nd robo or templar tech or double stargate, depending on what Lair tech choice you scout from Zerg with your observer...

- Your probe production is faltering a lot, so is your unit production rate, and your Twilight Council is REALLY late. I mentioned above when you should be aiming for it. This is why your upgrades are only 1-1 when you should at least be on +3 attack and +1 armor (or researching +2 armor, at least).

Zerg's upgrades are non-existent, but he has a MUCH larger army, which makes it not so much a big deal...

- See now, losing your incomplete 3rd/having to cancel it at the 12 min mark is a brutal blow to you, because this is when you NEED those resources to survive into lategame and actually counter push Zerg. This is why I was saying you need to have a bigger defensive army with sentries to defend any attack on your 3rd, and a warp-prism to counter-attack when his army is at your 3rd, out of position. This will slow him down a bit, and possibly force him to make mistakes, which you can capitalize on.

- I would say that at this point, you lost the game because you cannot hope to catch up after being set back so far. You're going to be facing hydralisks soon, and you have no infrastructure to make a ton of gate units and no way to reinforce your colossus army fast enough, and Zerg is taking a 4th uncontested... Once Zerg starts making a ton of roach/hydra, you won't be able to keep up...

- 14:10: The final battle, essentially... He is pushing into your army and incomplete 3rd once more with a maxed army vs 120 supply. You have 59 workers and he has 65, meaning his maxed army is 135 and yours is 69 with no forcefields, no immortals, no upgrades (aside from 1-1), no storm tech and just stalkers and 3 colossi...

GG.

=============

OK! So let's see what you need to fix immediately:

- Scouting

VERY VERY important. You need to learn how to keep your probe alive, and you need to start scouting a LOT sooner. Send it after you make your 1st gate, and send to check mainly 3 things:

> Early pool or normal pool
> Gas timing
> Natural hatch timing

After you ascertained that this is a macro PvZ you're playing, use that probe to run around away from lings, on the map and don't return it home, then use it to check on Zerg's 3rd at about 4:45 - 5:00 mins. If there is one, then be aggressive.

- Your build

You need to optimize your opening build to fit in defense AND economy.

Look to do the following:

Pylon > Gate > Gas > Pylon > Core > 2nd gas

Zealot
MS Core
Warpgate
Stalker

3rd pylon on low ground at your choke > Nexus > Forge > 2nd Gate + 3rd Gate when you can afford.

Get either a Robo and 4th gate right after, or go for double stargate Phoenixes (followed by defensive VRs), if that is your style, or go for 3 more gates and a Twilight council if you are going for blink.

All this time, keep scouting for a greedy 3rd. If it is standard 2 base Zerg into Lair, then attempt to take a 3rd after you have 6 sentries or 4 sentries + Immortal + Zealot/Stalker at about 9:00 - 9:30 mins

- Upgrades

Aim for 1 forge and +3 attack as soon as possible, or if you're going for really heavy gate style with a late robo, then go for double forge with twilight after your 3rd gate and AFTER your defensive sentries/stalkers.

OK, so now, let's look at the long term...

> Probes: practice making probes before every action you want to take, in midgame and lategame. In early game, your probe timings are ok so far.

> Chronoboost: you need to practice using chronoboost all the time, until it is second nature. It will GREATLY increase the efficiency of your builds and upgrade timings, making your army and infrastructure stronger in the long run. I use chronoboost after almost every action, which makes the usage more consistent. When I falter, I feel it. This is how it should be with you.

> Warping in. In PvZ, you cannot afford to just keep waprgates idle for long periods of time, like you do in PvT. You NEED to keep warping in units AFTER you started production on high tech units like Colossi. Keep warping in, until you have no available warpgates, and use the rest of your resources on upgrades and research. If you still have resources left, then use them on additional production structures and tech buildings.

A rule of thumb for warpgates that might help:
  • 1 base: 3-4 gates. 3 for aggression and defense. 4 for all-ins.
  • 2 base: 4-7 gates. 4 for defense and tech simultaneously. 5-6 for aggression with later tech. 7-8 for all-ins.
  • 3 base: 10-15 gates. Based on saturation, you increase your gate count accordingly, and use them for fast reinforcement.
  • By 4 bases, you should be on 18-20 gates.
This is all I can help you with today. Hopefully you can pick up some of it and analyze the mistakes made in the replay.

I also want to apologize if I was a little too blunt... I just feel that frankness with feedback is a lot more useful than being nice about it.
Last edited by Kira on Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now, you shall feel the power of the Protoss...
MechaStrizan
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:48 am

Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:32 am

I'm sure you may have heard this before but mechanics can be very important. Getting your hotkeys down so you can use them quickly and without error is important. One thing I have found that is very helpful is the HOTS hotkey trainer 1.2 It runs you through the hotkeys, and is much better for learning hotkeys than playing actual games. Give it a shot just type in hotkey trainer into the arcade.
Guest

Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:02 pm

The best way to get out of a low league isn't scouting, it isn't having the perfect army composition, it isn't even expanding at the right time. The key to getting out of a league like silver is simply macro. If you can get your mechanics down and never go over 500 average minerals spent, you will see insane improvements. After that you can actually macro, start worrying about strategies.
DOUBLED
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:06 pm

Tue May 06, 2014 2:20 pm

I agree with Glave.
Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests